Beating Bullying with Dr Karyn Healy

Tracey C.:
Has your child been bullied at school? Or maybe you know someone whose child has been bullied. It’s thought that bullying affects one in four Australian children – and the impact can be profound, with school bullying described as the single most important threat to the mental health of children and adolescents (Scott, Moore, Sly & Norman, 2014)*. So, what should you do if your child is being bullied at school? Hello, I’m Tracey Challenor. Welcome to the Life Education podcast series.

Tracey C.:
Today, we’re exploring what factors contribute to bullying, and most importantly, how to deal with it. I’m joined by Dr. Karyn Healy, psychologist and researcher at the University of Queensland’s Parenting and Family Support Centre and co-author of the world-renowned Resilience Positive Parenting Program with Professor Matt Sanders. Karyn has also worked extensively with schools, parents and children in preventing and addressing bullying and resolving conflict. Hello Karyn, thank you for joining me.

Dr Karyn Healy:
Oh, it’s a pleasure, Tracey, thanks for having me.

Tracey C.:
Well, lots to talk about. We hear a lot in the media about cyberbullying, but it’s the traditional face-to-face bullying in the school yard, which is still more common, although obviously both are damaging. How do parents and teachers tell the difference between real bullying and the everyday rough and tumble of the school yard? Things like teasing and name calling, which I guess seems to be a rite of passage for all of us when we’re growing up.

Karen Healy:
That is a very good question Tracey, and you’re right. It’s not easy to distinguish at all. So, we know that bullying is hurtful behaviour by someone with more power in the situation. So rough and tumble situations or arguments between kids who are equals is not really bullying, although it might still be inappropriate. Whether haters are hurtful, really depends on the child and whether they find the behaviour offensive. So, for instance, I’ve met a boy called turtle; he likes to be called turtle. And I’d met another boy who’s been very upset. These kids called him that name and he thinks it means that he’s slow. So, it’s not always clear to onlookers whether the behaviour is bullying or not. Bullying is deliberate. So, if a child keeps doing something that they know is hurtful then that’s bullying.

Tracey C.:
Okay. Well your research shows that there are certain factors that increase a child’s risk of being bullied. Not that it’s ever the victim’s fault and certainly no one deserves to be bullied. But what makes a child more likely to be bullied according to your research?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Yeah, there are factors that do increase risk Tracey, and one of them is as you say, just being around kids who do bully, but also some characteristics of the child. Most often, probably the highest risk factor is whether they respond emotionally to actions of other the kids. And if they tend to overreact, that can really ramp things up, but also really important factor is not having friends. So, a lack of friends; kids who are alone in the playground are vulnerable; kids with disabilities such as autism can be more vulnerable to bullying, but also factors to do with parenting. So, for instance, overbearing parenting or lack of warm support or even over-protective or helicopter parenting. So, kids don’t learn to do things for themselves.

Tracey C.:
Right. And what about just your typical shy kid who maybe has a really sensitive personality. Are they typically the ones that might be bullied as well?

Dr Karyn Healy:
They certainly can be, so kids who are not assertive and cannot respond to stand up for themselves when there are situations with peers can be more vulnerable. However, some of those kids, if they’ve got good friends, they can go through school with no problems at all.

Tracey C.:
Yeah, well bullying’s not a new thing, although we do hear a lot about it these days. Bullies have always existed, haven’t they? Why do some-

Karyn Healy:
Yeah.

Tracey C.:
Kids bully in the first place?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Oh, that’s an interesting question, Tracey. I wonder if to some extent, bullying is part of our biological make up. We know that bullying occurs in other species like chimpanzees, camels, birds and animals tend to attack and gang up on weaker members, of their species. All kids are different and some have different temperaments and tend to be more forceful in getting what they want. Ultimately, though, kids continue to bully because it works for them and gets them what they want. So, as parents and teachers we need to teach kids to be kind and to empathise and have compassion for others. And until they do this it’s really important that we keep firm boundaries in place and that includes consequences.

Tracey C.:
Karyn, there is that school of thought. I guess particularly in days gone by, parents would say to their kids, “Oh come on, you need to stand up to the bullies and give them a bit of their own medicine.” Does fighting back work as a long-term strategy to deal with bullying?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Look, I get asked that question so often. It’s quite a complex question Tracey. It really depends what you mean by fighting back. If kids can sort out problems themselves, for example, through discussion then that’s ideal and we can teach kids to be able to do this, to work out problems with words; to stand up for themselves if a child’s picking on them, or even preventing another child from pinching them by just putting their arm up in front of the body, however getting into a fight. We know it’s risky, we know that one punch you can kill. So, I would say it’s never a good to respond to words by hitting; that just escalates the situation. Really the best way to prevent situations from escalating into a fight is by responding calmly and talking. However, if the child is physically attacked and they fight back to defend themselves, it’s better that they do that competently.

Tracey C.:
So Karyn, what should parents do if their child is being bullied?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Probably the most important thing to remember, Tracey, is just to listen to your child and to be there for them. Sometimes in fact, that’s all that they want. It’s helpful to find out what your child wants you to do. Sometimes they might not want you to necessarily address it for them. Sometimes the child can improve the situation themselves and the parent can talk with the child and help them to plan how to do that. And if the child can do that, then it’ll make them more confident to be able to address situations in future.

Tracey C.:
So have that conversation first. Not necessarily rush off to the school and think you know,”Oh I’ve got to go on into rescue mode.”

Dr Karyn Healy:
Oh exactly, but if all that doesn’t work, if the child tries to sort out the problem; it’s not successful or if the parent’s ever concerned the child’s in real danger, it’s really important that the parent, does talk to the school.

Tracey C.:
Right. And in more serious cases of bullying, you do sometimes hear parents’ report that they went to the school for help, but the bullying wasn’t resolved. What should parents do if they’ve followed all the right channels and their child is still being victimised?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Look, that can certainly happen, unfortunately Tracey, and look, I think some schools are great at dealing with bullying and others are not so much. It is important to allow time for the school to sort the situation out. It’s not always a quick fix, some schools are just better at dealing with issues than others. Having said that, it can sometimes take a little time for a school to improve a situation. So, it’s important that parents allow this time: they might need to have more than one meeting with the school, but they should expect to see an improvement over time. If things don’t improve, there are sometimes other people in education that can help.

Dr Karyn Healy:
So for instance, in Queensland we have senior guidance officers whose specific job it is to help in situations when parents are not satisfied with what the school’s done. Perhaps other states have similar kinds of things set up. If bullying is continuing and the school cannot provide a safe environment, it is important that parents take further steps, but one of those things they should consider is moving schools. So a fresh start can sometimes help, when it’s not been possible to resolve bullying at the school … and it’s important that they choose a school that the child can make good friends and have interests in common with other kids.

Tracey C.:
Yeah, sometimes a fresh start, and a new peer group could be just what’s needed.

Karen Healy:
It can help, yes.

Tracey C.:
Well Karyn, let’s talk about the other side of the coin. How should a parent react if their child isn’t the victim, but is in fact the bully? I mean, that’s not a phone call that any parent wants to get from the school principal. What should a parent do in that situation?

Dr Karyn Healy:
No, I agree, that’s not a phone call, anyone wants to get. Nevertheless, it’s important not to panic, remember that, children, teenagers, they’re still learning how to get on with peers, and it’s not easy. So, as parents and teachers, we can help them. I would say, once again, it’s important to find out your child’s side of the story. So, we know that these situations can be complicated. There may be issues the school is not aware of, so it’s important to listen to our own child. If our child made a mistake, if they were bullying, it is important that we explain, that isn’t appropriate and why it isn’t. And we could help them perhaps work at what they can do to make things right and make amends.

Dr Karyn Healy:
Some kids might be able to learn from this and that might be all they need; just that feedback to be able to change. However, some kids have not developed empathy for others, and they need consequences to learn, that there are limits and that they need to treat other respectfully. So that might be, specifically rewarding and looking at the kind behaviour, but also using consequences like losing privileges if they are mean or disrespectful to others.

Tracey C.:
Well, Life Education has a couple of really popular programs: bCyberwise and Relate, Respect, Connect. And they’re about giving kids strategies to deal with bullying and online bullying as well as skills for building positive relationships with friends. How important are strong friendship ties in preventing bullying?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Well, Tracey I would say that having good friends is enormously important. So, we know that it helps protect children against bullying. And if anyone thinks back to their own schooling, having friends makes school more fun, it makes it enjoyable-

Tracey C.:
Oh, for sure. Yes.

Karen Healy:
On so many levels. We know that often it’s kids who are by themselves, at a bit of a loose end in the playground who tend to be targeted to bullying, but also emotionally, having good friends can make kids more resilient so that even if other kids are mean, it just doesn’t get to them so much. It works in a similar way to supportive parenting, it helps them feel more confident and less alone, in turn they’re less likely to overreact and the bullying is less likely to escalate.

Tracey C.:
I’ve certainly seen that with my own two boys who are teenagers, if there are any slight issues in the school yard, they tell me, “Oh, we sorted it out, mum, my friends backed me up.” So, it does give them that strong foundation, doesn’t it?

Dr Karyn Healy:
It really does, there’s so many ways in which having good friends can help.

Tracey C.:
Karen, cyberbullying is a big concern. Do you think a lot of parents are just a bit overwhelmed with the rapidly changing technology and perhaps need more support to combat bullying particularly as it can now follow kids home via their devices?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Oh it can be, absolutely overwhelming and I have found even young parents can find it hard to keep up with their kids on technology, but it is so important that parents do stay involved and support their kids, help them make good choices about age-appropriate social media and privacy settings. And I agree there is a lot of concern in the community about cyber bullying and that is for good reason, it can be really harmful. However, it’s important to remember that cyber bullying, is usually, it’s not a separate thing from face to face bullying, it’s usually a continuation of problems that the child is having with some kids they know, face to face. So, parents can still help with cyberbullying to support their child in the same way as we discussed earlier.

Tracey C.:
And the majority of it would have to be social media based, wouldn’t it? I think you said in one of your research pieces that about 80% of Aussie kids have used social media by the ages of eight or nine and that obviously jumps during teenage years and that’s the platform where a lot of this bullying happens isn’t it?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Yeah, so I guess you know any way that kids can communicate with other kids, is there a way that they can get to them if they are bullying? However, there is a lot of support our there. It’s really exciting to hear that Life Education is developing some online support. I’m also aware the Queensland government is setting up a one-stop portal for parents and kids to help them with cyber bullying and they’re also communicating with social media sites to change those platforms to make them safer. There’s actually quite a lot happening at the moment.

Tracey C.:
There are a lot of positives, definitely. Karyn, I just wanted to ask you though, we had a Life Education parent survey that found one in four Aussie parents feel that they don’t really have enough confidence to help their child through a bullying incident. In fact, many parents said that, their children probably wouldn’t even tell them if they were being bullied. Has that been your experience, that kids sometimes clam up about the bullying that they’re experiencing?

Dr Karyn Healy:
Oh absolutely, and the research would back those parents up and they’re probably the ones that are aware that their kids wouldn’t tell them. We know that, adults don’t find out about 50% of incidents and teachers are even less likely to find out than parents, so there is a real risk there and for that reason it’s really important that parents do stay connected with their kids, particularly as they’re getting older and into teenage years, that you can still find times to spend together, to enjoy things together so that if kids do have something to talk about, they can bring that up.

Tracey C.:
Yes, keeping the lines of communication open is really important, isn’t it? But what if kids don’t bring it up and parents just don’t know what’s happening?

Karen Healy:
Yep, look that’s realistic. One thing parents can do is just to be aware of possible signs of distress. So that might be teenagers locking themselves in their room, avoiding social situations they used to enjoy, a drop in school marks, changing friendships, those kinds of things. But also, when kids do tell us things, it’s really important – although it’s easy to do it – it’s really important that we don’t overreact and get upset, because that would discourage them from telling us things in the future, so it’s important that we do stop and listen.

Tracey C.:
Absolutely, well, Karen bullying it is a bit of a scary word for a lot of parents, but it sounds like there’s a positive side to all of this.

Karen Healy:
Yeah, I think there can be. One of the most important things that the kids learn when they’re growing up is how to sort out problems with others. There are difficult people and situations throughout life, so if parents can support kids in sorting out problems when they’re young, then this can be really helpful. They can learn to sort out problems themselves and also when to get help from an authority like a school.

Tracey C.:
So it’s really about kids learning good strategies to deal with bullying and that’s going to stand them in good stead into adulthood.

Dr Karyn Healy:
Definitely, so that can give them confidence in dealing with other similar situations, but also it can help strengthen the relationship parents have with their kids and just teach the child that even if unexpected things happen that there are people there that will be there to support them and help them work it out.

Tracey C.:
Great advice, Karen, and such an important topic for kids, parents and teachers in today’s world. Thank you for joining me today and sharing some helpful strategies to deal with bullying, it’s been lovely to chat with you.

Dr Karyn Healy:
Oh, absolute pleasure, thank you very much, for involving me Tracey.

Tracey C.:
Thanks Karyn …

My guest today was Dr. Karyn Healy – co-author of the Resilience Triple P Parenting Program and expert on children’s peer relationships, and school bullying. You can find out more about Karyn’s research, and excellent articles about bullying, online. I’m Tracey Challenor, and you’ve been listening to the Life Education podcast series. Until next time, thanks for joining us.

*Scott, JG, Moore, SE, Sly, PD and Norman RE 2013, ‘Bullying in children and adolescents: A modifiable risk factor for mental illness’, Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 48(3), pp. 209-212.