Social Media ~ what every parent needs to know – with leading cybersafety expert Brett Lee

Brett Lee 00:00

I don’t think your kids are going to get to 30 years of age and say, mum, my life could have been so much better had you let me use TikTok when I was 10.

Tracey Challenor | 00:12

Hi, I’m Tracy Challenor. Parenting kids in today’s world can be challenging. We’re all in this together. And on this life Ed podcast, I chat with a variety of experts who share their wisdom and advice to help you raise the next generation well.

 

Intro to podcast

Lately it seems like everyone is talking about social media and what impact it’s having on young people in terms of mental health, body image issues, cyberbullying and exposure to harmful content.

Politicians, health professionals, and parents have all joined calls to lift the age children can access social media from 13 to 16.

To find out more, I spoke to Brett Lee, one of Australia’s leading cybersafety experts.

Brett is a former detective who investigated cyber child exploitation. He’s a father of four and founder of Internet Safe Education.

 

Tracey Challenor

Brett, you’ve long been calling for the social media age limit to be lifted. It seems like we are at a tipping point as we learn more and more about the harmful impact social media is having on many young people. If we could keep all of the under sixteens off social media, what difference do you think it would make as far as protecting our kids?

Brett Lee | 01:40

Well, Tracey, I go off, of course, my experience as an undercover police officer on the internet, seeing firsthand some of the real-world dangers and some of the tactics and tricks that certain programs and even people online, um, employed to try and harm others, not just young people. But I’ve also been going into schools for 16 years now, and I worked very closely with school communities, not only the students themselves from primary to secondary, but also the educators, the teachers, which includes the pastoral and the welfare teachers, and also families.

And from what I’ve seen from that experience, I can see that in those key years of 13, 14, and 15, if we could get kids, … if we could normalise, in our community, that children who are 13, 14, and 15 don’t use social media, the effects are gonna be incredible. And they’re gonna flow on, they’re gonna be positively incredible and flow onto every aspect, of our lives. Our community, not only schools when it comes to education, but at home when it comes to health, it comes to relationships. And of course, that all flows through to mental health. So, I think it will be one of the biggest steps since the implementation of, user friendly social media programs in our community that we have ever seen.

Tracey Challenor | 03:03

How would it work, though? How would you stop kids from signing up to social media apps before the age of 16? And if we can do that, what sort of game changer would that be for parents and young people?

Brett Lee | 03:16

Well, of course, if it was put into legislation, if it was made a law in Australia, what that does, it doesn’t stop an individual making their own choices. But for one, for one, it would take a lot of pressure off parents to feel that, you know, this is me making this decision. I’m getting pressure from my kids. I don’t want my kids to miss out on anything. All their friends seem to have it. And that’s what they’re making their decisions based on. Putting it in as a, you know, as a legislation where, children under the age of 16 can’t have social media, takes that pressure off parents. But when it comes to kids, you know, how are we going to enforce it? This is what I mean about putting technology into perspective. Tracey, as you know, I’ve got four kids.

Tracey Challenor | 04:00

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

 

Brett Lee

I can’t stop them walking into a shop and stealing something. If they choose to do that, they can do that. But what we did as a community, we presented a world to them whereby, well, you just don’t do that. It’s against the law. If you’re caught, you could be embarrassed. You could get yourself into trouble. People consider you a thief, whereby the kids then have a reason to make their own choice. So, when we normalise this, research has shown that most people fall into line with those community expectations. Not all people, but just because we feel, well, if, if we made it, a law that you can’t have technology till you’re under 16, some kids can go and sign up sneakily. I believe, I believe the majority wouldn’t, of course, but they can do it. Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t put this in place and do what we feel is best for kids and community and let kids know where they stand.

Brett Lee | 04:53

So, it’s not about – and this is how our community’s operated for all of time – where we put the rules, the boundaries in place, we put policies in place, we educate people, particularly children, as to where they stand, what their rights and responsibilities are, then they’re the ones who make the choice. So, that’s the purpose of this legislation is to change the perception within our community in relation to when young people can have technology. It’s about normalising the good stuff. We started anti-smoking campaigns in the early seventies and never saw big changes until the late nineties.

 

Tracey Challenor

That’s right.

 

Brett Lee

So, it is going to take time. We are changing the perception of the community, and this is the start of it, and I believe it should have been done a long time ago. But, you know, kudos to those, particularly the e-safety who are pushing for this.

Tracey Challenor | 05:42

Because what we’ve been seeing, Brett, is that those kids, 13, 14, 15 that you mentioned, many of them just don’t have the maturity, the impulse control, um, the neurological maturity. They don’t understand privacy and risk, and, and that’s where some of the problems arise, isn’t it?

Brett Lee | 06:00

Oh, look, absolutely. And this is not about intelligence. It’s not about whether a child’s good or bad. It’s not even really about their maturity in certain different aspects of their life. It’s about the fact that they’re children and they look through the world. Uh, they look at the world through different eyes. We know there’s dangers out there, and there’s, people take advantage of that, even companies, um, who are there to make money.

So, it’s really about as they’re developing, as their brain matures, they’re looking for different things. They have different priorities in their life, and that can make, make them very vulnerable. And there’s a lot of ways that technology, either directly or indirectly, take advantage of those needs and those vulnerabilities. And as they’re developing, they’re developing – from my experience –  I don’t have a medical background, from what I’ve seen, it can change ’em as a person.

Brett Lee | 06:49

It can change their perception of life. It can change how they view relationships. So, it, it can really change also their role in the world where it can make them feel like, well, you know, I’m missing out on things. Look at all these other people who’ve got a perfect life. There’s something wrong with my life. I want this, so I’m gonna put pressure on my parents to get it. So, you’re exactly right when you say the, you know, the psychological maturity, and technology, what I say to parents is something to understand about the internet. Is it it for your children and for us as adults, it exists in one place. It exists in someone’s mind. Our kids don’t have any social indicators to grasp onto to determine reality. We have that saying, seeing is believing. Our kids look at the screen, what they see there occurs in their mind. They use, I suppose the skills, the strategies and maturity that they possess, and they make their choice based on that, whatever they see on the screen. So, it has a very powerful effect on a human being’s mind.

Tracey Challenor | 07:56

Brett, I was shocked to learn that more than half of all young people in Australia have been cyber bullied, according to a study that was done by Headspace. Another report I read said that cyberbullying is the cause of at least three suicides a week. It’s a devastating prospect. No parent wants to contemplate their child being pushed to the brink like that. But it’s important to have these conversations. What is it about cyber bullying that is so harmful?

Brett Lee | 08:24

Those statistics are alarming. What I do say to my audiences, whether they’re kids or parents, what, what we can’t do, if you are gonna use technology, sometimes you’re not gonna be able to control what pops up on your screen. Everyone has a problem from time to time. That’s the price we pay for using technology. The other thing is, we can never control the choices that other people make towards us. What we can do is educate our children how to deal with those issues as soon as they arise. From my experience, kids don’t have big problems with cyberbullying from one message. For some reason, they keep it to themselves. They let it continue. They keep revisiting it. I was told by a prominent Australian psychologist that children in particular are drawn to that thinking. The more they look at it, the more they can put it into perspective, and it’ll get better, but it actually compounds the negative effect.

 

Brett Lee | 09:20

Also, they may act on their emotions whereby they start to get involved in it. So, the, the effects of cyberbullying is such that, like I said, it occurs within a person’s mind, and that’s the loneliest place we can be. [Yeah]. That’s why it can have such a devastating effect. And I say to parents, just when you talk to your kids about technology, that’s how we identify if there’s an issue. And as soon as you talk to them, they have that feeling of support. They have someone on their side. And like I was saying, I don’t think the really big problems have from one message, it’s when it continues. So, we educate our children to, you know, don’t keep looking at it. If something happens online, it upsets you. Even if you make a mistake and then people are taking that and using it against you, come and talk to me about it.

Brett Lee | 10:08

I won’t kick you off the internet. I’ll help you fix that problem. [Yeah]. This is the way that we need to address that cyberbullying. But why it has such a negative effect? It’s happening in a person’s mind. It’s 24/7, they can’t escape it. There’s also something, what I call cockpit isolation. And that’s, it’s all happening within that person, and that’s what they can see. They can’t put it into perspective. They also know it’s global humiliation. One of the biggest problems that I get related to me from high school students, I mean even in year 10, 11, and 12, is they say the biggest problem is when someone humiliates or embarrasses them or bullies them online, they can’t get rid of it. It’s sitting there and they know 24 hours a day people could be looking at it. So, their embarrassment is ongoing, and they’re totally powerless to get rid of that.

Brett Lee | 11:00

Now, whose fault is that? Social media sites who say they are there for us, but they, you know, they have refused to take that content down or make it very, very difficult.

 

Tracey Challenor

Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>.

 

Brett Lee

And that’s where e-safety has stepped in, and they’re doing a good job. But that’s why I think it, it, it’s so devastating, even knowing more so than physical bullying, which, which in its majority is, is psychological as well. It’s about the fear of the physical harm. So, yeah, I um, it, it’s gonna be addressed through education.

 

Tracey Challenor  | 11:33

Brett, if there’s a parent listening now whose child or teenager is being victimised through social media, either with nasty comments or photos that have been shared without consent, what immediate steps can they take to manage that situation and stop the harassment?

Brett Lee | 11:49

Look, I like to empower parents. And I say, look, if you instruct your children properly, if they do have a problem, they’re gonna be armed with the, you know, the, uh, maybe the courage and the skills to fix it quickly. So, most times that it probably does a, a big deal doesn’t need to be made about it. When we hear about cyber bullying, we’re, we’re probably thinking about the, uh, the cases that are really having a negative effect on that young person’s life. Um, if it is a big problem within our children’s life, and, uh, what I suggest to parents is this, the first thing they must do is they, somebody, whether it’s the child themselves or another person, make a complaint to the social media platform, they have to do that. Then if they can’t fix it effectively and quickly, take screenshots so they have evidence.

Tracey Challenor | 12:38

Mm-hmm, <affirmative>.

 

Brett Lee

Now the third step, if it still can’t be managed, and after one day, the social media site has done nothing to address that issue, they then can go to esafety.gov au. And what they can do there is fill out a quick form, attach screenshots, and the eSafety can then contact the social media site and get that account or that content removed very, very quickly. For a lot of times, I think with parents, it’s using the skills we already have. Like if we, if we hear our child’s being physically bullied at school, if we hear our child in this case’s being bullied online, one, we may be able to contact the school for assistance who may be able to deal with the other family. Our child may have enough confidence and if they feel safe, is to talk to that person face to face because cyber ullies rely on that feeling of anonymity where they’re, uh, dealing with data.

Brett Lee | 13:36

They’re not dealing with a real person. So, expressing empathy isn’t such a big thing on the internet. And we see that with adults as well. And when someone’s approached face-to-face about their choices online, it puts it in a whole different perspective for them. So, there’s some of the strategies that, um, we can do. What I suggest is that we ask lots of questions. We keep talking to our kids to support them. Even if we can’t fix it straight away, encourage ’em to move away from it. I use an example with kids, and I say, look, even as an adult, I could get a, as soon as I get an email and I don’t like it, I said, I don’t read on. I said, because that’s someone controlling me. I delete the email. I blocked that person. And I said, do you know what, 99 times out of a hundred, you never hear from that person again. But I had to actually do that. So, empowering our kids to move away, play a different game, delete a message, um, there’s no one you have to, uh, connect to online. So, these simple strategies will probably help our kids fix, you know, the vast majority of the issues are ever gonna have on the internet.

Tracey Challenor | 14:41

Yeah. So, parents are not alone. It does take a community to address the issue. I don’t think a lot of people would be aware though, Brett, that cyberbullying is actually a criminal offence. What does the law say about that?

 

Brett Lee | 14:53

Well, different states and territories. Of course, we have federal law, we have state law and territory law. Of course, they have their own legislation that can address cyberbullying activity such as stalking. Uh, one of the offences is stalking: doing a concerning act, doing one or more concerning acts or one ongoing concerning act, um, against another person. So that’s very subjective, of course, what the concerning act is. But police can, in Queensland, um, that’s a state law can, um, you know, address cyber bullying, uh, under that legislation, but more of a general, um, federal law, which applies to every state and territory. So, everybody in our community, it’s called misusing a telecommunication device. So, it says, when a person uses a carriage service, now that’s anything to do with technology to menace, threaten, or harass another person, they commit a crime.

 

Tracey Challenor

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Brett Lee

So quite often, um, complaints, criminal complaints of cyberbullying are addressed under that legislation.

Tracey Challenor | 15:55

Well, cyberbullying is only one of the pitfalls of social media. We’ve also been hearing about a rise in eating disorders, alarming sextortion cases as well, where young people have been tricked into sharing compromising images and graphic self-harm content, which encourages kids, sadly, to try dangerous challenges. How has social media – something that really was marketed to young people as being fun and benign and all about connectivity to peers – become so potentially harmful?

Brett lee | 16:26

Yeah. Look, Tracey, when we, how, what I’ve seen from human nature is that when we use social media, we, we use it under the pretext that we assume everyone thinks the same as us.

 

Tracey Challenor

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Brett Lee

And they’re all there for the same reasons. And we sort of forget some of their life skills, knowing that isn’t necessarily the case. And more so for kids who are probably at a stage in their life where they’re more trusting, you know, they’re more, you know, they’ve got a very open mind, they’re more, uh, accepting of, uh, uh, what they see without being able to put it into context. And I’m just gonna go back to the very first thing we talked about. If your child between 13 and 15 isn’t in social media, you’ve almost reduced the risk to nearly zero that any of those issues you just mentioned is going to affect your child.

 

Tracey Challenor

Yes

Brett Lee | 17:09

At a very vulnerable stage in their life. So here are the benefits for putting this, uh, law in place. So, it’s it’s all about the connecting with the wrong people, connecting with the wrong content. And it, it, uh, moulds their beliefs in a particular way that isn’t consistent with what our community expects. Really. It’s, sextortion is, is about black mail.

The criminals pretend to be a, a very attractive person online. They develop a relationship with a young person. They then distribute a sexually explicit image to a young person and then say, if you want to keep talking to me, if you wanna show me you, I can trust you. You have to send me money yourself. Then as soon as a young person sends, uh, who they believe is to be a, uh, confidant online, um, uh, their sexual image, it’s then used against them, uh, to extort money out of them.

Brett Lee | 18:03

And how they do that is they say, um, look, if you, uh, if, if you don’t put $500 into our bank account, we’re going to, um, make sure everybody in your life sees this image, this sexually explicit image of you, and it’s gonna embarrass you, humiliate you, it’s gonna follow you around for the rest of your life. And something that’s not usually mentioned is, and this is where our children’s identity is a thing of incredible value. What happens then? The criminals along with that demand, they also list everything about that young person’s life, every person in their life, grandparents, uncles and aunties, cousins, friends from school, kids from another school, everything about where they go to school, where they play sport, to show them that we know everything about you and your life. And of course, what that can do is create, um, incredible fear within a young person. I have actually been to a number of schools in Queensland and other states where young people have fallen victim to this.

Tracey Challenor | 19:02

That would be an extremely traumatic experience for a young person, for any person. Um, I guess many kids will use social media and not encounter these sorts of things. I think for a lot of parents, probably the biggest challenge is just sheerly the amount of time that kids are spending on their devices. And, you know, we hear stats about the average teen spending four hours a day on social media. Um, I read a big survey of parents by the Triple P Positive Parenting Program, which found that almost three quarters of parents are worried that their child will become addicted to social media. We know that kids are accessing devices from a very young age now. While we wait for the laws to catch up and regulations around social media use to hopefully be tightened, how can parents empower themselves to have a conversation with their child that is not combative? And are there strategies that they can put in place right now to protect their child from being harmed in the online world?

Brett Lee | 19:57

Look, Tracey, obviously the earlier the better. So as our kids grow, they just accept that that’s the world they’re in. Now, I didn’t say they like it. I said, they accept the world that they’re in. I don’t need my kids to like wearing a seatbelt.

 

Tracey Challenor

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

 

Brett Lee

You just do that. And I’m very empowered as a parent to play that role because I know that’s just what you do. We need to know that when we play the role of, as a, of a parent and we manage, we take control of technology, we put some strategies in place, we keep talking to our kids, that the benefits we’re getting from that are just as great as the benefits we get as playing that role as it relates to our kids in the physical world. I, I found that, uh, what you just mentioned there, very interesting, where parents are very concerned about the amount of time their kids are spending in social media.

Tracey Challenor | 20:50

Yeah.

 

Brett Lee

But it’s the parents allowing their children to spend that time in social media. They’re allowing them to use social media for that period of time, probably not putting anything in place to limit it. Then they’re worried about it. So that sort of tells me we need to be a bit stronger. We need to say, I don’t care what public opinion is. I don’t care what my kids say about everyone else is using it except for me. I know that when I play this role, I put time limits in place. ’cause what I say to parents, is this a child who’s online two hours a day? Is at 100% more risk of falling victim to some online, uh, issue than a child who’s online one hour a day?

 

Tracey Challenor

Yeah. More time.

 

Brett Lee

Because they’re only there for half the amount of time. Yeah. Time limits are the best way that we can manage, um, problems that young people may face online.

Brett Lee | 21:41

So, time limits very important. I always come back to the most effective strategy a parent can have is communication with their children. Um, and it’s about communicating, as to how things are going, who they’re connected to, what the parent’s expectations are. If the child wants to go up and sneakily do something, they’re gonna do that. But our role is to talk to them about their online experience, bring it off the internet, because those children who are online in social media four hours a day, they’re being bombarded with content that, like I said, isn’t consistent with our community. So, their life, isn’t as balanced. So, when I was growing up, I would go to school, I’d be influenced by my peers, but I’d also be influenced by teachers. That’s still happening. But then I’d go home and be influenced by my parents. Yes. Then I would go and be influenced by my sporting coach.

Tracey Challenor | 22:33

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Brett Lee

Now young people are, their life isn’t balanced when it comes to the influences that, positive role models, um, are really disappearing from their lives. And that’s why they’re struggling. And these social media companies know that as human beings, our attention is drawn to the bad stuff online. Our attention is drawn to the things that are being done that’s outside the norm.

 

Tracey Challenor

Mm-Hmm.

 

Brett Lee

They know that. So that’s why they push that content out there because the more people that look at it, of course, the more activity, the more eyeballs on screens, the more eyeballs on screens and more advertising space.

 

 

Tracey Challenor

Yeah

 

Brett Lee

They make more money. They’ve worked that out through brain research. So, our kids aren’t getting that balanced life. So, the parents communicate with your kids, clear rules and boundaries. You decide what programs, apps, websites, your kids use and when, um, I, I like how they were saying we need to change the age that young people use social media from 13 to 16.

Tracey Challenor | 23:35

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

No one’s made it 13. This will be the first time that our community has put an age requirement in place. It’s only 13 because these companies say that that’s their cutoff point because it’s against the law for them to collect and store data of people under the age 13. A social media site would make it zero if they could. So they could start profiling kids earlier. And they’ve tried to do that.

 

Tracey Challenor

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Brett Lee

But it’s not 13, it’s nothing. That’s just what these companies are saying. Making it 16 is gonna be the first time that us as a community has stood up and said, this is not good for our children. 13 to 15 in particular. So, staying up to date, I say to parents, stay up to date, you don’t have to stay up  to date with technology <laugh>. That’s impossible.

Brett Lee | 24:27

Some of the listeners will probably be still using their Nokia flip phone from 2002 <laugh>. So, it’s not about staying up to date, but staying up to date with what our kids are doing now. We do that through conversations with our kids, other people we can talk to schools. There’s also a great website. I want to, um, pass on to your listeners called common sense media.org.

 

 

Tracey Challenor

That’s a great one, isn’t it?

 

Brett Lee

Yes. And I’m glad Life Education knows about that. It is the world-leading website that comes through reviewing, independently, reviewing, um, websites at programs games, movies for parents as it relates to young people use parent controls. The safest place that a child is ever gonna be on the internet is on the school network. The reason for that is they know the man in the IT office can see everything they’re doing. So, it encourages them to make a good choice.

Brett lee | 25:18

Yes. As a parent, there’s lots of great programs out there. Google has just released some great parental controls. Um, if your whole family uses, Apple, there’s Apple family sharing, but there’s also programs that can be purchased. But I would just suggest a parent goes. But, uh, Google’s filtering and monitoring software parental controls and always know as a parent, I’m the one that has a right to manage technology. I wanna say this to the listeners sort of at the end of this question. I don’t think your kids are going to get to 30 years of age and say, mum, my life could have been so much better had you let me use TikTok when I was 10.

 

 

Tracey Challenor

That’s right. Yeah. <laugh>

 

Brett Lee

I could have been, I could have been a doctor had you let me use Snapchat when I was 12. <laugh>. These companies are very good at building a lot of credibility around themselves, but not producing much that’s positive, uh, particularly in a young person’s life.

Tracey Challenor | 26:14

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Brett Lee

So, we are the ones that have the right to manage the technology. Every parent’s on the same page, every parent’s dealing with the same things. Now kids are just being kids. So, we are the ones that need to make that choice. And I don’t think that there’s one choice that a parent can put in place as it relates to their kids and technology that they believe is best for the health and wellbeing of their family that’s gonna have a negative impact on their child’s life in the long run. So, it’s about trusting instincts and being empowered.

Tracey Challenor | 26:47

Well, we do love your passion for child safety Brett. And every child deserves to have a safe and happy childhood free from bullying and from this harmful online content we’ve been talking about. You’ve been working in this space for a long time, as you said, I think 16 years with Internet Safe Education. What would you like to see happen with regards to the social media laws in Australia? Do you think we’ll be able to raise that age limit?

Brett Lee | 27:12

I would certainly hope so. Other countries, United States, um, it’s basically, uh, been released through legislation. Uh, there was a bill to, uh, Federal Parliament in the United States in relation to making the age less. Uh, France has introduced a law not so much in relation to this, that makes it illegal for a parent to share, um, photos or information of their children in their own social media sites.

 

Tracey Challenor

That’s right. Yeah.

 

Brett Lee

So, I think we’re starting to, we’re starting to find best practice. There is a part to this where our community, the government is a reflection of our community. Um, they can tell us what is and isn’t okay. Like speed limits, you know, wearing seat belts, but also you are not allowed to have a social media site – maybe in some certain conditions when they get to 15 years of age – but under 16, also, the eSafety having, um, powers now to, uh, try to make some of these companies – social media.

Brett Lee | 28:11

Now, when I say social media, I’m also talking about video sharing sites, TikTok, um, YouTube, and also gaming sites. ’cause the social media site’s really a place that brings people together in a public space to share information. So, parents should know that’s what a social networking site is. So, it includes most games.

These companies need to continue to be made more accountable. They’ve shown through history, they’re not prepared to do the best for our community because they’re companies; they exist to make money. So, it’s about, I think also our government continuing to make these companies more accountable for protecting our kids. Letting our kids sign up with no identity within 30 seconds, and then exposing them to all the content that’s largely unfiltered and unmoderated. So, I think that’s the way forward. I think the law is definitely gonna be there, ’cause we’re very good as a community eventually getting to best practice.

Brett Lee | 29:07

And like I said, the smoking laws were, uh, are an example. So, I think we’re doing pretty well. I wanna leave the parents…so if I can say one thing to parents is most young people have a pretty good time online. Most young people don’t have life- changing issues on the internet.

 

Tracey Challenor

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Brett Lee

So, it’s good to have a healthy fear of what can happen online, just like the physical world, but not to let it override our kids being part of that online world. Most kids make a good choice where they can, particularly if they’ve been instructed in the right way.

Tracey Challenor | 29:38

It’s an incredibly important topic, and I really appreciate you sharing your great advice, Brett, to help parents navigate social media and the online world. It’s been a really enlightening chat.

Brett Lee | 29:49

Thank you, Tracey. Always a pleasure. And I know that Life Education will also keep up the good work in your community.

 

Tracey Challenor | 29:55

<laugh>, Thank you. Absolutely.

If this conversation has raised any issues for you, we’ll have links on our website to Lifeline, Kids Helpline and the eSafety Commissioner. And to find out more about Brett’s work head to our Life Education website for bio and other details.

For listeners in Queensland, that’s life education qld.org au. And for listeners in other states, just head to life ed.org au. I’m Tracey Challenor, and you’ve been listening to the Life Ed podcast.

Until next time, thanks for joining us.

 

Podcast outro

Life Education acknowledges the Kombumerri people of the Yugambeh Language area as the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which this podcast is recorded. And we pay our respects to the elders past and present.