Strength through adversity with Dr Judith Locke

Tracey Challenor:

Hello. Thanks for tuning in to the latest Life Education podcast. I’m Tracey Challenor, and today we’re talking about coping with the new normal. How to help kids adjust to being back at school, amid a global pandemic. It’s been a pretty tumultuous year for both parents and kids, with many families experiencing job losses, the trials of home schooling, separation from extended family, and a lot of uncertainty. My guest today is Dr. Judith Locke. Judith is the author of the book, The Bonsai Child, as well as being a regular media commentator. She’s a former teacher, workplace trainer, and she presents parenting workshops across Australia. Hi, Judith. Thanks for being with us.

Dr. Judith Locke:

My pleasure.

Tracey Challenor:

Sounds like you wear a lot of different hats.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Yes. Yes. Yeah, no, I know, that’s good. I wear them all at once, at times.

Tracey Challenor:

Keeps you busy.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Yeah.

Tracey Challenor:

Well, Judith, the feedback that schools have been sharing with us at Life Education is that isolation, increased financial hardship, as well as the relentless media focus on COVID-19, is contributing to stress and anxiety within families, which in turn is impacting on children’s wellbeing. Has that been your experience in your own clinical practice?

Dr. Judith Locke:

Look, a little bit, but not as much as you would think. What I’ve found, mainly, is that some children thrived in it. So, I think it’s very hard to sort of say all children had a challenge. I think some kids loved being at home, setting up their day, doing their schoolwork at either seven in the morning or 11 o’clock in the daytime. And so, I’m not sure that students were as impacted, possibly, as parents. I definitely think parents have felt the challenges of school at home, felt the financial difficulties, some have lost their jobs, and some have sort of really had to work very hard to keep up their jobs going in such a sort of tricky climate. So, I definitely have seen it much more the challenges experienced by parents than by students. But, of course, there have been some students who have really missed the socialising, and things like that.

Tracey Challenor:

It has been a juggle for parents, hasn’t it, trying to deal with their own jobs, if they’ve still got them, and home schooling, particularly for primary school kids. So tricky. Even though the coronavirus risk to children is said to be low, kids have been hearing so many messages about physical distancing, hand washing, sneezing and coughing the right way, and it is important that kids get those messages. But, on the other hand, we don’t want them to develop a sort of germ phobia or a fear of being in the school ground or public places. How do you get the balance right as a parent?

Dr. Judith Locke:

I find, generally, the children who have got extremely worried about it are probably the ones who are tending towards anxiety, previous to this. So, I mean, it’s funny, if you walk anywhere near groups of school children and things like that, I think social distancing is the last thing on their mind. I think they get, they’re much more concerned with sort of chatting with each other and things like that. So, I think the majority of them have sort of been a little bit unaffected by this, but I think there have been some children who have really reacted strongly to it. And it’s likely that they had a pre-existing anxiety sort of issue, particularly those ones who have become very germ-phobic and things like that. I mean, and let’s face it, some parents have become the same way, and, to a certain degree, you have to be germ phobic.

Dr. Judith Locke:

But, when it’s taken to an extent where the child doesn’t want to go anywhere for fear of catching something, or they’re over washing their hands, then it can be very challenging. So, generally, I sort of have warned parents about not going overboard with your kind of threats of what will happen if they don’t wash their hands properly. And I think sometimes parents can give very extreme advice, you’d better do this or else, and give a sort of message of great doom and gloom. And I think if you’ve got a child who tends towards anxiety, that’s going to be the worst thing for them because they’re likely to get much more worried about the event than they should.

Tracey Challenor:

Yeah. So, remind them to wash their hands, but try not to be too heavy-handed about it.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Oh yeah, that death and destruction will follow if they don’t do it properly. And, I mean, I’m sure a lot of people that were brought up with that sort of, if you don’t clean up your room the world will end kind of parenting. I think parents will sort of pull that in every now and then when they’re really clutching at straws to kind of get their child motivated to do these things. But, I think you have to be very careful of that and keep to them exactly what they need to do, that it needs to be washing for 20 seconds, that it doesn’t need to be any more than that, that if you’re keeping basic hygiene standards, you’re going to be fine. And I think sort of reassuring them a little bit about that, as well, is important.

Tracey Challenor:

Mm-hmm (affirmative) And you write a regular column for the Sunday Mail, and one of the things you spoke about recently was that isolation has been a blessing in disguise for some kids, and also for some adults, because it’s meant slowing down a bit from the normal hectic routine, and now we’re gearing up again. Some kids are going to struggle being back in a normal classroom after being at home for so many weeks and having more freedom to control their own schedule. How should parents support their children if they’re finding it a bit difficult to adapt back to regular school life again?

Dr. Judith Locke:

Well, it’s a couple of things. I think, first of all, a lot of them have… It depends on how much structure you have in the home. Now, there’s a lot of parents that tell me that their child is perfectly behaved at school, but very badly behaved at home and I think often that probably indicates that they do have self-regulatory skills, and the skills to sort of behave appropriately but, possibly, parents haven’t set up the right conditions in the home where the child feels the same need to sort of behave appropriately and do things on times, and so, basically, follow instructions. So, I found that the parents who are most challenged by isolation were the ones who didn’t have those sorts of rules and didn’t have their child going to school, and kind of getting that structured, disciplined kind of place. And so, without that kind of positive influence, children were much more badly behaved.

Dr. Judith Locke:

So, I think structuring the home is always essential, be it the school at home situation, or be it just on a weekend and things like that, and getting them to do things they don’t want to necessarily do to get the things they want to do, like doing their homework before they watch TV, or doing their chores on a weekend before they get to go outside and play or play on screens. It’s sort of getting that structure because that’s basically how schools work all day. It’s kind of doing this to get morning tea, and doing this to… And sort of getting through the day in that way. So, possibly, parents needing to structure that. I think there are some kids that are, again, probably the children who are somewhat easily catastrophising situations and sort of anticipating that school’s going to be much worse. I think it’s very important for parents to remind them of the joys of school and how much they enjoy it.

Dr. Judith Locke:

But, I do anticipate, a and I’ve been hearing clinically and from schools, a few situations where if the child had difficulty with separation anxiety at the beginning of the year, then they’ve almost forgotten that they’re comfortable in going to school in the last couple of months because they haven’t had to go to school. And so now that separation anxiety has come back again in the early days of going back to school. So, I think parents keeping a good eye on that and making sure they get that similar assistance from the school, in the first instance, talking to the school about the fact that their child is unwilling to separate from them in the morning, or getting clinical advice, like seeing a clinical psychologist.

Dr. Judith Locke:

And again, always the parent getting the advice on how to sort of coach the child into better behaviours, not necessarily the child getting that advice because it’s very hard for a six-year-old to sort of remember what a psychologist told them last week and do it tomorrow. I think that’s really hard. So, it’s much better for the parent to know how to coach them into comfortably separating from them at school.

Tracey Challenor:

Yeah. So, getting some structures and boundaries back in place and trying to emphasise the positives about being back at school: being with your friends again, and all the great things you’re going to learn, and those kinds of things. I wanted to ask you too, a lot of parents have been very worried about how COVID-19 will affect their kids’ academic performance. But, it’s interesting, they say that when schools closed in Christchurch after the massive earthquake in 2011 – and many children didn’t have access to online learning – student results actually went up in the final exams, and kids did much better than expected. Do we need to just go with the flow this year and have faith that most kids will catch up on any learning that they’ve missed?

Dr. Judith Locke:

Well, the essential thing to remember is that your child is not the only one that’s faced this challenge. Their whole cohort has faced this challenge. So, you’re not comparing apples to oranges here. To a certain degree, kids who don’t have as much internet access possibly have been held back a little bit in terms of doing the work, but I don’t think schools have kind of taught or relied on any huge kind of educational concepts being understood by kids without instruction in a classroom, and things like that. So, I think all that stuff will be repeated. So, if your child wasn’t doing their lessons as much as, say, the kids next door or things like that, I don’t think they’re going to be held back enormously because I think most teachers will be repeating that work and making sure that all the children have got this.

Dr. Judith Locke:

But I think we’ve got to remember that there have been some strengths that have… And some skills that have come out of this time, including a sort of a more relaxed pace of life, different types of learning. So, maybe not learning about sort of the work that’s in school, but learning how to bake a cake, and how to amuse themselves at home, and things like that. And I think that that sort of benefit’s huge for these.

Dr. Judith Locke:

The other thing we can’t ever forget, and as I talk about in my book, The Bonsai Child, that I talk about the fact that kids need challenge to grow. Challenge makes you stronger. Challenge makes you more capable. It builds your resourcefulness. And we can’t underestimate the fact that having some sort of challenge like this, where they’ve had to sort of learn new ways of taking in work, may be beneficial to them and may develop their resilience skills in the future. And that’s possibly what we saw with the Christchurch cohort, and also the children who went through, I think it was in Norway, the big shooting on that island, the horrible terrorist event, where all of them ended up doing just as well as previous cohorts. So, while it is challenging that for them to face this, I don’t think we can ever underestimate the benefit of a child facing some challenge and feeling stronger as a result of having faced that challenge.

Tracey Challenor:

Yeah, that’s a really good point. And what do you think about this idea that some psychologists have put forward, and you just sort of touched on it, that there are some positives out of the pandemic? I mean, obviously, it’s a tragedy what’s been happening, particularly overseas, but it’s a defining moment in a way that will teach all of us a bit more about gratitude and resilience. How can we practise gratitude as parents and teach our children the same?

Dr. Judith Locke:

I think it’s really important not to be letting your child know that they’re in any way a victim in this event. I think that’s really important because I think it’s, funnily enough, often as a result of sort of modern parenting and kind of looking for potential harm for your child and looking for sort of where they’re being disadvantaged and things like that. I think, inadvertently, with the best of intentions, you can start to suggest to your child that they’re regularly disadvantaged. So, by not getting in a class with their best friend, that is a disadvantage for them, or by not getting with their favourite teacher, that’s a disadvantage, or with the camp group that they want. And the trouble is, is when you’re consistently telling somebody how much they’re disadvantaged, they can easily take on a victim mentality, that sort of belief that the world’s against them, and that does not give them a good sort of sense of moving forward in their capabilities.

Dr. Judith Locke:

So, I think it’s very important to sort of absolutely show empathy and listen. So, if they come home and express disappointment that they’re not in a class with their best friend or something, express empathy to the fact that they’ve missed out on seeing their friends for the last couple of weeks or months, or that they didn’t get to go on that school camp like they normally would because of what’s happened. So, show empathy to them. But, I would really encourage parents not to do that kind of sympathy thing, you poor thing, and sort of start to do that thing where you start to almost indulge them as a kind of compensation for what they’ve faced because that kind of suggests that they’re much more disadvantaged than what they are. And there is no benefit in that for a child to think they are a victim. Yes, it’s disappointing, but I wouldn’t say it has a huge impact on the rest of their lives.

Tracey Challenor:

No, because, as you say, a certain amount of adversity is character building, isn’t it? And I’m fascinated by your book, Judith, The Bonsai Child because you talk about helicopter parenting and how when kids don’t get to experience a bit of disappointment in life, they can have trouble building resilience and confidence. Can you talk us through that? What do you mean by a bonsai child and what tips do you have to build better resilience in kids?

Dr. Judith Locke:

Well, a bonsai child is very much like a bonsai plant, in that bonsai trees are very much the sort of reduced version of a real tree. So, they look very perfect. They’re kept in sort of perfect conditions in a very small pot. Wire is wrapped around their branches to make them look like perfect trees all the time. And they’re kept in perfect weather so that it’s not too cold for them or windy. Like a bonsai plant, a bonsai child is a child that’s been brought up to have a perfect childhood, so never faced any disappointment, had things sort of work out for them all the time, got the biscuit that they wanted with the green smartie, and all of that sort of everything. It’s gone sort of perfectly swimmingly for them. And what I noticed, clinically, and I started noticing this probably about 15 years ago, is I started noticing that kids who had been brought up in what would be described by most as a perfect childhood, never having faced any sort of challenge, ended up being stunted, not as capable of facing the future.

Dr. Judith Locke:

So, I see it in some of the university students, you see where they react much more badly to criticism or constructive feedback and things like that because they’re so used to things going swimmingly and perfect for them all the time. So, they end up having less resilience to face the normal ups and downs of life. And so, a big sort of key chapter in the book, and all of the practical strategies that come as a result of that, is that trees need wind. Without wind, trees don’t grow stronger. Wind makes them grow deeper roots, makes them make their branches stronger. And so, rather than protecting trees from wind, we actually need them to sort of face the normal challenges of the day, to sort of fit into the forest and fit into the world. And, likewise, kids need age-appropriate challenge.

Dr. Judith Locke:

And that may be sticking with the class without their best friend and learning that they can cope with it, or learning that they can cope when they don’t get a place on the maths team, and things like that and sort of learn. And that’s going to make them much more confident to face the rest of their lives. So, we’ve sort of missed, with the best of intentions to give them this sort of happy praise-filled, achievement-filled lives.

Dr. Judith Locke:

But I just know those children aren’t as prepared for what life is invariably going to be. Unless you can sort of be with them every moment of the day, which is why, where helicopter parenting first came from is that parents were still hovering around their kids in university years. So, still calling lecturers, and they still do now, calling lecturers and asking them to get their child an extension, and things like that.

Tracey Challenor:

Oh, my goodness.

Dr. Judith Locke:

University lecturers were looking at this and going, “Well, this is developmentally inappropriate. Why’s it happened?” And it’s because the hovering that occurred early on is not let go over time. And so, but it’s not just the university, it’s workplaces now are getting phone calls from parents, as well.

Tracey Challenor:

Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Judith Locke:

In fact, somebody told me a story about a parent showing up recently for a job interview, saying that, “Oh my child’s not free for the job interview, but I know all about them so I can do the job interview.”

Tracey Challenor:

Oh, that’s terrible.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Can you imagine how mortified you would be?

Tracey Challenor:

How embarrassing. I think, as parents the key is knowing when to hold back and when to step in. And that example you give, of well-meaning parents wanting to get their kids in the same class as a friend, or even requesting a particular teacher for their child, I’ve heard so many stories like that.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Well, and the other thing you can’t forget in this is every time you step in, you suggest your child can’t cope. And so, the message you send, it’s not just making things better for your child. It’s actually sending your child the message that you can’t cope.

Dr. Judith Locke:

So, if every single time you go to the petrol station with your partner, your partner fills the car, overtime what ends up happening is you start to think you can’t fill the car, that it is a job that only they can do. So, even with the best of intentions, over time you can start to suggest people are less capable. And so, it’s not really a vote of confidence to suggest your child can’t cope without being their best friend. And it stops them developing new friendship skills because a lot of times if that child stayed with that best friend throughout their schooling, they have to kind of stick with that best friend for the rest of their life unless they learn how to make new friends, or cope when their best friend’s not in the room with them.

Tracey Challenor:

Yeah, for sure. And you’ve also talked about how doing things that are outside of the comfort zone is a big part of a child’s development. And yet, as a society, we’ve become so safety conscious, so much so that nowadays we often hear people complain that some public play spaces have become downright boring for kids because we are so risk averse. What is the benefit to kids in being able to take part in those slightly thrilling, but fun activities that we remember so fondly from our own childhoods?

Dr. Judith Locke:

It’s so important for kids to feel some fear. It’s really important. One of the most beneficial things of a child climbing a tree, and facing the challenge, and being a bit scared on stepping up onto that next branch is learning that they can cope with a little bit of anxiety. If you give them a life with no anxiety whatsoever, no fear, no [inaudible 00:19:40] and I know I wrote a column on this, even doing something as an adult, jumping across a creek from stone to stone and getting that slight fear, you realize very easily you can sort of get into this life where you’re not feeling any fear and so then fear can feel really dangerous for you. So, then you, as soon as you feel a little bit of it, stop doing it. You go, “Oh, I can’t do that. I can’t face that,” because the less you feel fear, the less you realize you can actually cope with it.

Dr. Judith Locke:

And so, sometimes one of the greatest benefit of kids kind of doing the tree climbing, and monkey bar moving across, and all of that sort of stuff when they’re facing something, or even learning to ride a bike, when they’re facing something where they get that sort of rush of adrenaline that comes with fear, they’ve got to learn that they can cope with it because, if not, when they stand in front of the class to give their talk on what they did on the holidays, or whatever it is, when they get that immediate sort of first bit of fear, which will always happen when you’re speaking in front of… Well, for most people, not all, of course, but you will think this is a terrible thing because fear is not an… It’s not a comfortable feeling for you.

Dr. Judith Locke:

You don’t realise you can sort of cope with it. And so, what will end up happening is I will reject anything that involves fear, and that’s going to end up being an incredibly narrow life because you’ll never try that Zumba class if you don’t know that you can cope with discomfort, and cope with looking like a bit of an idiot. And you think of a lot of those joys, even as an adult, doing the Zumba class or the step class, or learning how to do Pilates, or even some of those things, you need to just sit there and go, “I know I’m going to be uncomfortable in the first lesson and I need to get through it.” But if you don’t get through it, you don’t go back to that activity. So, you’re only doing the things you know, and it can be quite a boring life.

Tracey Challenor:

Yeah. I did a tandem parachute jump once. That was pretty exhilarating.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow.

Tracey Challenor:

One of my most vivid childhood memories is climbing those big fig trees down at Wellington Point on Brisbane’s Bayside. And I remember being about 10 years old and getting stuck up a tree, I’d climbed out on this huge branch. And my parents were in the distance having a family gathering with relatives and cousins, so I couldn’t call out to them and I was too embarrassed to call out to families that were around me. So, I can still recall to this day, my legs turning to jelly and just having to figure out for myself how to get down from that tree. And I think it’s character building to overcome fear, isn’t it? And to find our own solutions to problems.

Dr. Judith Locke:

And the rush is so great because when you get that adrenaline, you go, ‘Right. Now I can conquer anything.” So, that sort of sense of joy that comes out of facing something enables you to face much more, which, again, will give you a much more exciting life.

Tracey Challenor:

And, Judith, just getting back to the current situation with the coronavirus, it’s almost like we have to square our shoulders a bit and just get on with life, knowing that there’s still that invisible threat lurking in the background. Obviously, every family situation is different, but, in general, what advice would you give to families about how to get the most out of life during a time like this and stay positive?

Dr. Judith Locke:

Well, I think a lot of it’s just accepting what you can do and what you can’t do, and not really sort of pushing against it too much. I mean, there are only a certain number of people allowed in restaurants. There’s only a certain distance you can travel at the moment. And I think just that sort of acceptance of it is probably the better way to do it, to do it and sort of… I think it’s good for people to realise that while you want to do as much as you can, there’s a lot of joy in just accepting what you can do rather than getting angry about it or upset about it, and things like that. So, I think in some ways, teaching your child just to cope with the limitations that are occurring right now is really important. I think, yes, there is an invisible threat.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Yes, there is. But there’s always an invisible threat. Life always … it’s dangerous to get in a car and drive anywhere. You know? And if you’ve ever watched any of those shows like Six Feet Under and you see them happily play a game of golf, you know a golf ball’s about hit somebody. [crosstalk 00:24:07] It’s kind of like there’s risk in life [crosstalk 00:24:11]

Tracey Challenor:

That’s life.

Dr. Judith Locke:

And, to make a child over-aware of risk on a regular basis to a point where they start living a more narrow life is not good. So, I think, weirdly enough, as long as you are doing everything that the authorities tell us to stay safe, I think moving forward with this is all we can do. I don’t think we should be too overwhelmed. And look, I’ve got to say, there’s probably, of what I’ve seen, equal positives out of this. You cannot buy a jigsaw puzzles in any capital city in Australia.

Tracey Challenor:

I know. Everyone’s doing jigsaws at the moment!

Dr. Judith Locke:

It’s such a great sign because that is such a beautiful activity for families to be playing, or even board games have been quite hard to sort of get, or sidewalk chalk. There’s so much stuff you can’t buy right now because kids are doing those sorts of things and families are doing those sorts of things. And I think if there’s anything to be taken out of this is remember the joys of that family time, and don’t lose it as the world opens up. You can still be doing those sort of quiet times. I often suggest that at least a couple of hours every weekend should be screen-free doing sport outside or playing board games, and things like that. And I think we cannot lose that. I think there have been some joys in this. There’s been challenges, of course, and people have lost loved ones which we can never underestimate, but there have also been some benefits, as well. So, we’ve got to sort of hold onto those as much as we can.

Tracey Challenor:

Absolutely. And it’s like that saying, it’s often the simple things in life that are the best.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Absolutely. Who knew jigsaws were that fun?

Tracey Challenor:

I’ve actually got a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle ready to start. I haven’t done it yet. It’s sitting on my kitchen table.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Yeah. Well, and just the calmness of doing some of these things. I mean, look, sometimes board games can cause family arguments, and things like that. But even the joys of that, of kids learning to lose, learning to or win without being too annoying about it. There’s great pleasures in all of these things. So, I think we can’t think it’s all been doom and gloom.

Tracey Challenor:

No, for sure. Look, thanks, Judith. It’s been so great to chat. I could talk to you all day about parenting issues. And you’ve got another book coming out, hopefully this year, called The Bonsai Student, which looks at how modern parenting impacts on children’s school experience. Maybe we could catch up again to talk about some of your strategies to help children become confident, capable, and independent learners.

Dr. Judith Locke:

Look, originally, it was a chapter in The Bonsai Child, but it was just such a large chapter of what to make sure your child is confident and capable at school. It was such a large chapter I sort of pulled it out and have made it into a book. And it’s morning routines, it’s evening routines, it’s homework, it’s report cards, it’s all of that stuff. So, it’s exciting stuff, very much the sort of practical things because I think you can talk platitudes until you’re blue in the face, but I think actual practical strategies are really key for parents.

Tracey Challenor:

Well, I’ll look out for that. We’ll look forward to reading it. Thanks again, Judith.

Dr. Judith Locke:

My pleasure. Have a great day.

Tracey Challenor:

You’ve been listening to the Life Education podcast, and my guest today was Dr. Judith Locke, clinical psychologist, author, and parenting expert. I’m Tracy Challenor. If you like our podcast, check out the other podcasts in the Life Education series. Until next time, great to have you with us. Thanks for joining us.